As several of us watch the progression of a case involving alleged misconduct by a former EMS employee as it hurtles toward a DOAH administrative hearing---some interesting facts must be noted.
First of all, this hearing before a hearing officer is an administrative, civil procedure. Some folks on some chat sites don't know this, they want this former employee's head on a plate. They think he is up on criminal charges!
But no, this is a civil, administrative matter. It is serious, it is important, but it is a civil matter.
And the question for the hearing officer will be fairly basic. Is there clear and convincing evidence that this individual did what has been alleged?
And because this individual holds a state certification, he will have to answer to these allegations in one of the following four ways:
--Formal hearing before the Division of Administrative Hearings (contest the charges)
--Informal hearing before the board (no dispute)
--hearing waived before board (no dispute)
--settlement by licensee to board for approval
(See the process flow chart, below.)
In perusing the settled case files and reading a couple of interesting recommended orders like this one----one thing becomes exceptionally clear very quickly to even the most casual observer: proving something to the standard of clear and convincing isn't a slam dunk. Especially if there are facts in dispute, if it is a "he said, she said" issue....And when you are talking about someone's livlihood---their state license---it has to be a high bar to meet to prove even the most sensational allegations.
In speaking with a lawyer I know and trust about the difficulty in proving something to this standard--when issues are contested and with dualing expert testimony submitted, the reply was short and simple "Jeff, it will be difficult if not impossible to get to clear and convincing with dualing medical experts on complex subjects of contention." Another attorney I asked put it a bit more bluntly "It would be an expert vs. expert smack down. That [clear and convincing] is a very high standard to meet."
So while anyone can throw a bunch of charges against the wall to see what sticks----and while some of these allegations can be framed in such a way to make someone look terrible----at the end of the day and at the end of the process, even these tremendously scary sounding allegations have to be proved. And the burden of proof in this instance must be clear and convincing.
So it will be a Doctor vs. Doctor game of rock em' sock em' robots. The hearing officer will read one doctor's "charge sheet" and see another doctor refute every single allegation in his written counter. Each and every one. So with two well qualified doctors completely disagreeing--how the heck will the hearing officer ever meet the "clear and convincing" standard to find this employee violated the state licensing regulations he is alleged to have violated?
But then the really interesting timelines will come in that make getting to clear and convincing even more difficult. The timing of the harrassment complaint is devastating to the doctor making allegations about the employee. This is because these "allegations" from the doctor against an employee were made AFTER the harrassment complaint was made by the employee against the doctor. And that timeline will be easily illustrated and backed with proof.
But then the most obvious of obvious, million dollar questions will most assuredly be asked by the DOAH hearing officer once he gets through with the dualing doctor testimony:
"If you allege this particular employee was so inept, dangerous, and reckless in his conduct, why did you not counsel him, discipline him, or restrict his privileges to address these alleged shortcomings until AFTER you found out he filed a harrassment complaint against you?" "Furthermore, why did you save up and document all of these purported incidents where this medic, according to you, acted with recklessness jeopardizing patient safety--but during this same timeframe where you gathered these allegations you never once recommended he be disciplined nor conseled--and you NEVER restricted his privileges or reported this to DOH?"
Throw in the emails and initial HR documents that point to retaliation, or at a minimum the appearance of retaliation, on the part of the doctor making these allegations against the employee-----and there appears to be no pathway to getting the allegations against this medic sustained to the level of "clear and convincing."
And by the time this thing even goes to DOAH, there will likely be a huge, 6-figure settlement paid to this employee by the county that will be out there in the domain of public records that can and will be included in the hearing--complete with transcripts. And these will only help this employee.
I predict he clears his name and defeats these allegations and charges, because clear and convincing is a high standard to meet.
Thank you for this clear information. The false information on the chat sites (mainly ECW) is horrendous. I hope some of these individuals get sued for slander. Enough is enough! Maybe then that will stop the bs they continue to spread.
ReplyDeleteJust curious, but if the DoH complaint is dismissed for lack of "clear and convincing" evidence to sustain the allegations within it, what will happen to a medical director who has made such a complaint?
ReplyDeleteIf it's clear from the timeline that the complaint was made as a retaliation, and the allegations within it cannot even be sustained, I mean.... seriously...
Jacqueline Rogers is pretty much begging to be sued. She doesn’t care who she slanders with her lies on her hate site.
ReplyDeleteThe lies, slander, and misinformation from Jacqueline Rogers, Alex Arduini, and Sean Bullington, posted on various Facebook pages is going to catch up with them eventually. Their hate, harassment, and intentional misinformation isn’t going to have the affect they think it is. Their hatred and intent to create division is appalling.
ReplyDelete"He was previously disciplined by Dr. Edler."
ReplyDelete"you have absolutely no idea about the structure in public safety apparently and the fact that by law the medical director has no hand in the administration of the employees. She only gives medical direction."
--Jacqueline Rogers, in a single post on Escambia Disinformation War-room, June 15 2021, 9:30 pm
---------------------------
She also posted these blatant lies about the Matt Selover timeline:
"He was previously disciplined by Dr. Edler. He refused to show up at his QA/QI review for these incidents when notified but instead marched straight to file a complaint.
If your boss calls you to come to your office but before you hear the bad news again, you run and file a harassment complaint that's completely legit, right? What a joke!!
She hadn't even talked to him yet!"
---------------------------
And apparently she has no idea that one of the people who sat that panel later apologized to Matt about it, admitted that Edler tried to get him to lie in writing about the timeline of events, and that he was willing to talk to HR and higher-ups about what had actually happened:
"There are witnesses that were in the meeting when it finally happened and they aren't saying he was harrassed [sic]...you know that, right?"
----------------------------
Of course, when Matt emailed HR about this information, that's when Jana Still made up the fake thing that he couldn't have a second appeal. When he had never appealed the initial (positive in his favor) HR decision in the first place. If what she and Administration didn't concoct against Matt's HR complaint wasn't fraud, it was darn near close.
County is very lucky they got off with 200K.
--Melissa Pino
I’ve been a fly on your wall for a brief time since I read about you on a Pensacola group page. I saw you speak today and I was impressed. The lady sitting with you that spoke about military families was well spoken too. I also read your recent comment on your wall about Janice Gilley’s removal and I wanted to say that was a classy response. Youre nothing like youve been painted to be. Thank you for your advocacy.
DeleteThank you for this info. I appreciate your blog.
ReplyDeleteJacqueline Rogers needs to have a restraining order issued on her about this issue pronto. Doesn't the county's legal counsel support these paramedics? This is very destructive to our county government organization and other citizens that can see this happening in a public county forum. It needs to be reigned in. Apologize I have to do this anonymously. She gets public record requests then posts emails exposing their email addresses on just ordinary citizens who she disagrees with. It has stopped me from even writing to the county for just every day input. The fact that a county commissioner is on that site is problematic also because I think he got the records for another issue and passed them to her to post. I don't even want to say what it was I understand Edler is attempting to get money by suing the county. Wouldn't you think this conspiracy/collusion would be detrimental to Edler in her case? It all seems very vindictive. You all need to get a handle on this and let it simmer down.
ReplyDeleteSo you are admitting to helping “this employee” by championing him during the shade meeting? Can’t wait for those transcripts to be made public by Pam Childers office and not reviews by your county attorney! The truth will be damaging and you know it.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 1:32 How many other elected official’s wives badmouth their husband’s colleagues like you do?
DeleteAnonymous:
ReplyDelete"Doesn't the county's legal counsel support these paramedics?"
Alison Rogers cut the four paramedics who got set up by the County off of any legal representation when they got arrested. She's in a very grey area there, and when that happened no doubt they all had to hire and pay out of pocket for both a criminal attorney for their SAO charges and a medical licensure attorney for their administrative complaints.
Think on that. I can't even imagine how much money that would be in retainers alone. :(
--Melissa Pino
Not everything you read on the internet is true yet certain individuals on the chat pages like Escambia County watch fall hook line and sinker for things posted there. If you disagree they’ll gang up on you like high school kids that somehow think it makes them look tough and superior to bully another human being because they don’t agree with you.
ReplyDeleteThey’re ganging up on Megan Walters now because she didn’t profess a hatred towards Commisioner Barry. Sean Bullington, commisioner Underhill and Nancy Demlow tried berating her. Sean Bullington spreads so much hatred and savagely bullies people to the point that you have to wonder what is really wrong with him. I will not do business with anyone that posts on that page and participates in the gang mentality. It’s appalling. Grow up people and get some mental help stat.
Commisioner Bergosh,
ReplyDeleteI admit to not being 100 percent knowledgeable as to what occurs in the county, however I do try to follow along as much as my time allows. I’m disheartened by what appears to be the county turning into a circus with several dangerous side shows.
I was completely against the controversial retirement plan, but I did appreciate your request for the legalities before jumping too far ahead. I’m glad that debacle is behind us so that we can move forward with the next agenda item, being the removal of the administrator. As a lifelong resident, voter, and tax payer, I’m all for her being relieved of her duties as well as the removal of some employees she’s brought in. In my opinion there’s many instances that should of resulted in her contract being terminated prior to tomorrow’s evaluation. It’s time to correct the atrocities that seem to be a daily occurrence within the administrative department. I hope the board does the right thing and removes the incompetent county administrator at tomorrow’s meeting. My hope is that will be a productive first step in correcting a lot of misdeeds that I feel she’s taken part in, and encouraged.
Jacqueline Rogers, I’ve watched the bocc meetings and at one time I had respect for you, however that’s no longer the case. You’ve let yourself become a puppet for one Commisioner, I see you as a creator of animosity, dissension, and a reprehensible purveyor of hearsay, misinformation, and lies. The bullying you take part in and encourage, makes it painfully obvious what a miserable lady you are (using the term lady very loosely). You’ve made it abundantly clear you’re incapable of handling opinions that don’t coincide with your own and your agendas. You act like a school yard bully demanding you’re right and anyone that has the audacity to disagree with you is automatically labeled a devil in disguise. You should be embarrassed, but I have a feeling you’re incapable of thinking clear enough for embarrassment to resonate. As another commenter stated, many of us in our community are watching and I agree that I won’t do business or associate with anyone that takes part in your school yard bullying tactics. I hope you can somehow step back for a moment to reflect on what you’ve become. You’re not helping the community.
Sincerely,
A concerned resident that doesn’t even feel comfortable using my real name out of concern of retaliation for having my own opinion.
Concerned, well said 👏👏. A small group of people have lost sight of the fact that you can get your point across without bullying others. That group of people are downright sick in the head. Wasn’t Trump’s wife’s cause cyber bullying? I think Florida has a cyber bullying law to prevent the type of bullying that group does. Report the group report them to their employers or don’t do business with them. Cyber bullying has consequences.
DeleteBefore the accusations start flying let me state I’m not Melissa Pino, a commisioner, or any of the usual suspects people get accused of being when they voice their own opinion.
ReplyDeleteCommissioner Bergosh
ReplyDeleteNot this case but from me reading the other cases on the clerk's site, To me it looks like someone told the states attorney to "THROW THE BOOK AT THEM" then issued a gag order on the acused. They have languished well over a year on the books
I won't embellish much because it can be opinion and inuendo. But you know who Admin brought in when she came on to look into the public safety and everyone..ohhed and awwwed.
But is that really the proper way to settle conflict. Bring in the big guns?
For one she said Mr M would volunteer. Then RicksBlog exposed she paid him.
People are watching and perhaps of course not everyone is completely innocent and perfect and conflict must be settled but the public is reading along on these cases and can see the charges.
Of course I'm not on the jury and in no way connected but am simple observing.
Those charges seem obsessive.
Just from this alone, I see some of the quandary you are in at the board with the Admin
Thanks for the free speech.
Praying for all involved.
I hope this doesn't put you in a tenuous position, if so you don't have to publish I'm glad the county is supporting these paramedics. I hope the additional cases are disposed pronto.
Thank you for all your work and considerations of issue. You are my favorite commissioner on the board.
401 a as far as the retirement brought up, yes the back pay and all was not good and I believe by statute Childers is in her right to do what she is doing. I'm sure it's embarrassing but not a witch hunt.. Move on
ReplyDeleteBarry is an honorable commissioners as well as the four of you.
To me it's not an issue and I see Barry may be doing some damage control and NE does helps him..lol
That's fine.
We know you all have a lot on your plate and I honor your decisions.
Thanks Melissa I'm sorry you have all had to go through this.
ReplyDelete132 is one of the worst people that has poisoned our county government, he should not give her the passwords to his accounts and alcohol as it is not a good mix.
ReplyDeletewell maybe the 401a is an issue.. typed before I went to Ricks Blog actually it's a bit amusing for me, and I hold no malice but to some I'm sure it's a big deal.
ReplyDeleteHappy Summer Solstice.
Wild Ride
nix the 401a comment (to a point)
ReplyDeleteGheez ya'll
Happy Summer Solstice
It's a little amusing to follow actually, I know to some it's a BIG deal..
Jacqueline Rogers and her legion of misinformation need to stop. I think its wrong to try and slander commissioners Jacqueline Rogers is very short sighted person who says my way or the highway. Please lets come together for the greater common good of Escambia County. There is work to be done
ReplyDeleteWonder if 132 is also against taking retirement, isn't that special. The return to the white trash on Perdido getting off the ecat bus at access #4 will really appreciate you all giving that back. Power to the people. people over politics.
ReplyDeleteOh so the truth comes out Underhill voted for the 401a.I guess back in 2016 himself and he called you little boy and the peanut gallery clapped.
ReplyDeleteSee they can't see what he does. only what he says.
Commissioner Underhill and his peanut gallery of four are a joke.
DeleteI’d like to say thank you, Mr. Bergosh, for your positive words for our local teachers at the board meeting today. We appreciate you. You and Mr. May are two of the biggest advocates for youth in our community, and I want you both to know your efforts don’t go unnoticed. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteWhat Mr. Jonathon Greene said was also heartfelt and on point. Thank you Mr. Greene for your advocacy as well.
I’m thankful Ms. Gilley was removed from her position, and I thought it was done with class and respect. I think she handled it with a lot of class as well. After seeing the condition of the ECAT building and knowing firsthand through a family member what some of the employees have been put through I believe the right decision was made. Thank you to the 4 Commisioners that made it happen. The people that spoke in favor of wanting her removed were articulate and had legitimate reasons. The others that did not want her removed only spoke of reasons they liked her.
As far as some of the others that spoke, I felt myself cringe in disbelief by the way Mr. Sean Bullington handled himself at the podium. Sir, you made a complete fool of yourself. I fear anyone that has to come in contact with your obvious instability and temper problem.
When Ms. Melissa Pino spoke at the podium the first go around intentional coughing started from Jacqueline Rogers’ small group from Escambia County Citizens Watch, to keep Ms. Pino from being heard. The coughing immediately stopped when she was through talking. This is the mentality of children that aren’t mentally equipped to act like civil grown adults. I might not always agree with what she says, but as a resident she’s just as entitled to speak as anyone else. That should be respected.
I think the small group from Escambia County Citizens Watch believes they’re doing good for the community, but they’re terribly wrong. As someone else said, they create animosity and division. The accusations made by Mr. Alex Ardini were very incorrect regarding his claim of slander, lies, and hearsay from other citizens. I’ve seen things he’a posted on Facebook and he’s guilty of what he accused others of doing.
The constant bullying of other citizens, Commisioners, spreading hearsay as fact, and making assumptions is a dangerous route to take when it comes to trying to influence decisions for a whole community. The people guilty of it should be mindful of that in the future.
I agree wholeheartedly about bullying Commisioners, county and city employees, and private citizens of Escambia county to intimidate them because some people don’t like opinions that are different. I’ll quit doing business with all business owners and any business that employees anyone on Escambia county citizens watch group that participates in bullying and the slanderous tantrums that go on when they don’t get their way. People are entitled to their opinions and should feel free to voice them either way without feeling fear of having their character assassinated and their name drug through the mud. The paramedic they slandered viciously was terrible. They don’t understand what effective advocacy is all about. All they know is bullying and intimidation. Escambia county can do better. Shame on all of you that are guilty of taking part in the mob mentality.
ReplyDeleteI watched the meeting from home and didn't tune into until about 11 or so, and missed the people speaking on public forum and actually the speakers for or against Gilley, but will probably go back to the video in time. One can learn a great deal by watching and not commenting publicly. It helps to keep from getting too far into the toxicity and accidentally go low.
ReplyDeleteI believe it was a tough decision to end Gilley's contract, but you had hard decisions to make and it was not done lightly.
Commissioner Barry did make a powerful move and actually I thought he might appoint Wes and was correct. I watch things, for one, it is very interesting not just to follow government but follow the politics.
I watch some people on face book groups and one thing, I noticed is they never change their mind, usually no productive discussions happen, at least on these local ones. Or not often.
I don't think some with the polarized issues around the paramedics will ever back down as they are so assured in their own positions.
Quote from Mark Twain:
"We all know that in all matters of mere opinion that [every] man is insane--just as insane as we are...we know exactly where to put our finger upon his insanity: it is where his opinion differs from ours....All Democrats are insane, but not one of them knows it. None but the Republicans. All the Republicans are insane, but only the Democrats can perceive it. The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane.
"The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane."
Perhaps if we can learn not to be adversaries, much more could be accomplished.
I agree with your vote on Selover. I watch the attorney thread the needle. I know life is not in black and white and one who learn to navigate the gray areas are more successful.
I agree with your vote on Gilley, mainly because I trust the four of you and respect you have difficult decisions to make and I think the retirement issue will suss out. I hope so, it really is a proverbial can of worms and very useful political fodder.
I do think and do not know that perhaps Gilley playing Underhill games was the last straw. He is losing and everyone that supports him and his way of being a cog in the wheel is losing.
It's fairly simple.
Do unto under AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU...
unless they just keep on and on and on and on...
Underhill disparaging his colleagues on ECW is "insanity" and stupidity.
Watch them tie themselves into know because they think this vote was Barry retaliating to Ms Gilley.. some will never come off that position and line of reasoning.
Perhaps it was time for a reset, but yes I witnesses a quiet deliberate power done in the proper setting and somehow it was a four to one.
The Board has spoken.
so mote it be.
That's how government works. Respect the process, be effective if you can, or not.
It one's choice.
Bender should have graveled the clapping and the coughing and corrected Underhill when he said he would win his lawsuit, "little boy"
Yes we caught that.
Will Marlette do a cartoon?
You can tell that is what he is angry about and has driven his vindictive actions..but as we say in grade school. He started it.
Fragile Flames
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yowyOZ_3xZw
I watched the meeting today and three people from Escambia County Citizens Watch spoke, the same three that are guilty of bullying anyone that disagrees with them or anyone they think will get in the way of their chosen cause of the hour to be outraged over. They are Jacqueline Rogers, Sean Bullington, and Alex Arduini. If I said “whoa Jacqueline Rogers needs to stop spending her life online and put her energy in dieting because she looks like a fat penguin waddling up to the podium”, or “Sean Bullington looked dazed and confused and his anger was so out of control, I thought he was going to go postal any minute and be taken out in a straight jacket” or “Alex Arduini looked like a frail crazy crack head and his eyes were as big as saucers, and those ginormous dumbo ears need a hat to hold them back” ….most normal people would be outraged by reading that, and they should be. But those three think it’s okay for them to say disgusting things like that about the Commisioners, and people they choose to single out and harass them. Saying people are mentally ill so no one will believe what they say, mocking real mental illness, making fun of the shape of a Commisioners head, they way they look, reposting their words to gang up on them and mock things they say. It’s ineffective and only makes you all look very gross doing it. That’s not community advocacy, that’s cyber bullying in its lowest form and being a nasty human being. You three stooges make people think you need psych evaluations.
ReplyDeleteDon’t forget Alex Arduini’s involvement in QAnon that he now tries to hide and deny. He is very involved with QAnon.
DeleteScreenshots of Alex Arduini’s involvement with QANON were posted on studio 850 under the “BREAKING JANICE GILLEY FIRED EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY” post. He can’t deny his involvement anymore.
DeleteI wish these issued had never been politicized
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9lNbigHVyw
Perhaps passing the vote on this will help win the whistle blower frivolous lawsuit.
ReplyDeleteWho needs an employee that goes around suing citizens and their own board-- Throwing long term veteran paramedic employees in jail?
I bet Underhill coached her on all the above.
His legacy, the most destructive commissioner in the history of Escambia County.
It is not reform and it is not fighting corruption.
It's being an idiot.
I personally will not be shocked by the shade transcripts, I imagine.
I guess I see now why this really needed the real sunshine.
Bring it.
Doesn't it seem that a person is unaware the damage to the board (our county) to look up DOH complaints, before they go to DOAH look up the citizens, call them publish them on line, encourage them to file lawsuits..
ReplyDeleteRight there in public -- speaker stated what she will do.
Sounds like unawareness of the harm she will bring. Yes a real political winner there.
653
ReplyDeletetell us how you really feel. ROTFLMAO.
I know I shouldn't..
yes one sounds like a parrot, Like suddenly he's an expert.
"Honestly I’m more concerned with the local Panon’s than any other anonymous group! 🤷♂️"
Boo, I'm not in any group and certainly not a PAnon..
The TRUTH is shocking when someone finally speaks up?
Arduini, Perhaps stop pushing Underhill's narrative of why the board decided to end Gilley's contract. You are stating opinion as fact which is a very Underhillian thing to do.
ReplyDeletefrom the PNJ
"I don't have an interest in airing complaints and dirty laundry and that kind of stuff," Barry said at Thursday's meeting.
"Bergosh said Gilley always has been willing to work with him and has done a lot of things right. But he said that he felt she made missteps in handling human resource situations, especially around Emergency Medical Services and Escambia County Area Transit.
"The biggest measure of performance is how you treat people," Bergosh said."
I know you came on the scene late and have the deal about opening the beach in March 2020 when actually they were deciding what to do among themselves anyway.
You have hooked yourself to the wrong wagon. I know your intent is probably noble but you keep going around trying to get to email and such.
ECW has been disparaged Bergosh for years and Underhill is on it, this the animosity there. If anyone defends Bergosh they are the out group. Notice only a few speak, and how many really watch the meetings for years on end?
There is a laundry list of problems with this administration but they are being civil and allowing her to bow out gracefully..
It's a southern think for all you loudmoths out there..
Honor and all that..
Gossip and all that..
MWP no one is on your qanon phobia train.
ReplyDeleteI am.I think the crazies that follow QAnon are out of their minds. You’re one of them Alex Arduini. Using Melissa’s full initials is just as creepy as you taking pictures of people’s text messages in the bocc meeting yesterday. It’s a good thing you were dumb enough to post it online though, you showed what a psycho you really are. Bravo. Didn’t you take selfie’s in front of her house too? You’re a crazed stalker.
DeleteMWP
ReplyDeleteGood you took your Broxson post down, can't you retract the claws for more than a few hours?
Here's what is going to happen.
ReplyDelete1) I'm not certain about this DOAH outcome. I trust the older mature doctor.
2) all the other paramedics cases will be changed to misdemeanors
3) the BCC will get an unbiased medical board for Q/A Q/C which is not filed with boyfriends and drinking buddies.
4) Ms Roger will still think she is the resident expert on any and every thing and assemble group and teams to attack anyone who disagrees.
5) Doug will finally get the hell out of here and anyone with any sense knows this all started when he got involved and politicized it, especailly after the board will refuse yet again to pay his legal fees.
6) Dunderhills will still think Doug in the greatest thing since canned beer, spin for him just like the PNJ..
7)All the narcissists will think the are right and everybody else of wrong. PERIOD.
8) If Jacqueline doesn't shut up she'll get more people to sue the county..hey why not? Join the club.
9) The county will win the whistleblower case.
10) The Medical director was more concerned about herself then the health of the organization but she and her buddies will always blame it on someone else and never know that they handled it incorrectly.
I mean does every Doctor in the ER that has a patient code need this type of scrutiny?
Hopefully cooler heads will prevail..
and all the others can go find something else to bitch about unless they just want to see asses get wider.
I see they are talking about this on ECW with the new PNJ article out 6/22 and it appears there is an attorney discussing it with JAR. They are talking about the case Edler vs Pino and the fact Edler is a public figure..I'm hoping he gets wind and asks her if she collected all the screenshots and handed them to Edler to file a statgic lawsuit against public participation against some one she disagreed with for Underhill sake also.
ReplyDeleteCotton put a spin on it and says the case will go before a judge, I thought it was an administrative hearing at the DOAH.